Layout confirmation

[aro]

Could someone please check my layout and see if it follows the schematic correctly? I tried to get confirmation of this on another forum but I didn't get anywhere. I believe I'm very close, if not right on, but I would need some confirmation since this is the first time I do this. It's not rocket science, but when you just get started it looks like rocket science.

I only drew the the V1 and V2 stages. Once I know those are OK I'll add the remaining V3. Thank you.

http://members.cox.net/white_strat/box/Staalhoofd_mod.pdf
EDIT: This version of the layout has been replaced by the latest one.

BTW, this is a mod that gets very, very close to Slash's AFD tone.

[tubesornothing]

Yeah, I can see why you didn't get much of a response. It takes a bit of time.  Unless someone is interested in building your circuit, you might not get a response.

A good technique for checking layouts matching schematics (and boards too!) is the "yellow highlighter technique".   Basically trace each connection and each component on the schematic and the layout, using a yellow highlighter to mark the schematic and the layout for those components that are correct.

You can also use a pink highlighter, but that would be sissy.   

[sluckey]

It's not a very logical layout. It would help to label your ground points. I see them, but it's confusing and would be very hard or impossible for a novice to follow.

See the 2.2nF cap that's connected to V1 pin 6? You have the other side of that cap going to the input jacks. The schematic shows that cap connected to the volume control.

I didn't see any other errors.

[aro]

It's not a very logical layout.

I can't argue with that. That's pretty much where the level of my logic is right now... I'm working on it.

I'll reverse V1a and V1b, it makes no sense for them to be like that.

Ground points... True, not clear.

That 2.2nF cap screams 'Wrong!', but I overlooked it I started drawing this thing to make it work like a typical 2203/2204 dual input model, but somewhere in the process I didn't follow up on that. I'll give up on the dual input for now and try to make it work with an 18 watt power amp.

I didn't see any other errors.
Wow Maybe there is hope for me

Thank you, sluckey.

[aro]

OK, I finally did a more decent version of the V1 and V2 layout. Any comments, anyone? Thanks.

http://members.cox.net/white_strat/box/Staalhoofd_layout_1.pdf

[sluckey]

That's much more logical and easier to follow. I see one error. You have 5 components connected to V2-1, but the schematic only shows three. Easy fix. See attached.

Are you wanting to make a workable layout on a turret board? If so, will you use a standard 'off the shelf' board that has parallel turrets? Or make your own board? If making your own board, there are a few changes I'd make to your layout. Nothing critical, but maybe more eye pleasing.

Or are you just doing a brain exercise?

[aro]

Thanks, you're right, that's a bad connection there.

I don't do brain exercises, it hurts too much. This is a layout I really want to use for a board. I want to put this preamp in an 18 watt (power) amp. Basically, I want to build a 2203/2204 with 18 watt output.

As far as the board...I don't have the tools to make my own board... I think I will have it done by someone who knows what they're doing. Now that you mentioned 'off the shelf' boards with parallel turrets, where could I get something like that? It might need to be longer than the standard Marshall board.

[sluckey]

Maybe this pdf link will help. This circuit has a lot of squeal potential if not done properly. You have chosen a pretty ambitious project. It's way above the level of a miswired cap can. Someone here may could build a board for you.

Tubenit can probably help you source some generic turret or tag boards.

[aro]

Maybe this pdf link will help.

Maybe? MAYBE??

YES, it will !! Wow, Sluckey  Thank you, thank you, thank you :icon_salut:

OK, now I caught my breath... That's a nice layout. What software did you use?

You have chosen a pretty ambitious project. It's way above the level of a miswired cap can.

That's heartless, I'll pretend I haven't noticed it.

Just kidding.

You're right, it's not the simplest project. The thing is that this is what I really want to do. I've been reading/thinking about projects for months and this amp is the one I would like to have. I've been reading Merlin's book, TUT vol I, Richard Kuehnel's books on preamps and power amps. At some point I want to do more than replacing a resistor. I realize it's maybe foolish, but that's me...

The miswired cap can happened because I didn't have a layout and I wasn't sure about the right schematic (which you then found). I hope that with a good layout things will work out well with this one.

Soon I'll get an 18 watt kit from Trinity amps and I'm planning on using that one, but with this preamp (and just one input). The layout and wiring for the power amp will be explained in the kit. I think this will make things easier.

Basically I will build their power amp, following their instructions, but when I get to the preamp I'll build this one (and I'll add the extra gain stage). The only thing that I still need (besides the parts) is a board for the 18 watt amp and the new preamp. Once I get the kit I can draw the layout for a board that will have the two on one single board. It should be easy, right

[sluckey]

OK, knowing the whole plan helps a lot. Taking the filter caps offboard and using cans (like the 2203) will free up a lot of room for the PI and power amp components. May have to add another inch or two to the board length. Hopefully there will be enough chassis real estate to mount some more cans. And don't forget about the extra tube. Looking at the Trinity 18 chassis, you could add another tube at the end of the tube lineup. Move the EZ81 close to the other end of the chassis and enlarge the original EZ81 hole to mount a dual cap can. Personally, I'd just start with a blank chassis. It would look neater. Especially the front panel.

It's doable but will require a lot of planning. You may want to run this idea by Stephen at Trinity. Keep us posted on your progress. I'd hold off on building a board until you have the kit. The chassis layout may dictate how to build the board.

Sorry about the cap can comment. It was uncalled for and out of place. I use Visio for layouts and schematics.

Good luck,
...Steve

[aro]

You don't have to apologize, I didn't take it as an offensive comment. It was actually a good reminder of what I'm up against. After all the help you gave me I should...I don't know...mow your lawn for free for six months

I did talk to Stephen a lot. He's actually going to arrange the PT/OT and the cap so that there will be more room at the other end of the chassis for a longer board. When I get the kit I'll hopefully be able to estimate the type of board I'll need.

You said to "mount a dual cap can". Right now the 18 watt has only one cap. Do you think I need another one? (There are some pictures of the chassis layout here: http://www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1798)

I'm trying to make it work with the kit chassis simply because I'm not able to build my own chassis. If it's too small I'll have to either find someone who can do this for me or I'll get a Metro 100 watt MV chassis.


BTW, where did you get all the components symbols for Visio?

[sluckey]

You said to "mount a dual cap can". Right now the 18 watt has only one cap. Do you think I need another one?

Trinity's 18W TMB has four filter caps. Two are inside that chassis mounted can and two individual caps are mounted on the board. I'm saying to take the big caps off the board to free up room for your custom circuit. Use an additional dual can to function as the caps you removed from the board. Now you'll have two dual cans on the chassis for a total of four filter caps. Don't think of a can as a single cap. The pics on this page illustrate what I'm talking about.

http://home.comcast.net/~seluckey/november/november.htm

I think the Trinity 18W TMB chassis will be big enough. It's 20" long.

I made most of the Visio symbols (stencils) you saw in that layout. Bnwitt and I and others have freely shared our custom stencils on this forum.

[aro]

Thank you, now I understand what you're saying about the dual filter caps. I emailed Stephen about this, if it's not too late he'll drill a hole for that other cap. Otherwise I'll have to find a way to do it when I get the chassis.

I guess the last hurdle (of the prep work) will be combining the power amp and the preamp in one final layout. However, I will have both layouts to work with and this should make it easy.

sluckey, could you by any chance post the Visio raw file? I would like to look at it.

[sluckey]

sluckey, could you by any chance post the Visio raw file?

It's too big to post. I can email to you. Is your email address valid?

[aro]

Is your email address valid?

Yes.

[sluckey]

I uploaded the layout file to the following address....

http://home.comcast.net/~seluckey/Aro_Project.pdf

Get it soon. Nothing lasts forever.

Print on legal size paper. Study the combined schematic and layout until you become very familiar. You can probably find someone here to make the board for you.

I still think this is gonna be a squealer. Be very careful and neat with lead dress. You may need more shielded cable. I've never messed with an amp with this many gain stages, but there are plenty of high gainers on this board to help.

[aro]

Get it soon. Nothing lasts forever.

Especially not the good things...

Wow, YOU ARE KILLIN' ME! The board is complete I was speechless when I opened the vsd file.

...................................................

HOLY... I just noticed there are two other tabs, Schematic and Drill Guide. You really want to give me a heart attack, don't you... As you can see I'm quite excitable, this really floored me.

Print on legal size paper. Study the combined schematic and layout until you become very familiar. You can probably find someone here to make the board for you.

I found a guy on another forum who could do this, but if I found someone here it would be even better.

I still think this is gonna be a squealer.

You bet, especially when done by me...

I've never messed with an amp with this many gain stages, but there are plenty of high gainers on this board to help.

The guys on the forum where I got the schematic from (metroamps) have no problems with that extra gain stage, but then they are more experienced than me and they just add the extra tube to an amp that's already grounded properly, while I start from scratch.

This will be an interesting project. The steep learning curve should lead, eventually, not just to a good sounding amp, but to an amp I really look forward to.


The first thing I'm thinking of is changing the plate resistors so that I get voltages similar to the 2203/2204 values. I didn't know I would have the layout so fast (how did that happen ), so I haven't researched this yet, but I remember reading on the Aiken site that if you do this the grid (I think) resistor also needs to be changed. I believe that the right voltages are very important in getting the right tone.

Well... I really thank you for all this. It is very much appreciated. It looks like Santa Claus came back this season, he knew he forgot something :occasion17:

[sluckey]

The first thing I'm thinking of is changing the plate resistors so that I get voltages similar to the 2203/2204 values.

I assume you're gonna build it as is, debug it, get it working, etc., BEFORE you start changing things.

[aro]

I assume you're gonna build it as is, debug it, get it working, etc., BEFORE you start changing things.

That's what I will do. Initially I was thinking 'well, I'll play it by ear, see what comes out', but now with this nice layout it would be a shame to do that, so I will take one step at a time.

[sluckey]

The guys on the forum where I got the schematic from (metroamps) have no problems with that extra gain stage, but then they are more experienced than me and they just add the extra tube to an amp that's already grounded properly, while I start from scratch.

Can you provide a direct link to the metro thread that deals with that Staalhoofd mod? I can't find it but would like to read some more.

[aro]

Can you provide a direct link to the metro thread that deals with that Staalhoofd mod? I can't find it but would like to read some more.

Short answer: it's gone.

Long answer below:

Interesting development on that at the metroamp forum. The main thread has been removed today. The discussion continues here: http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29759.

Basically, some guys pretty much nailed the AFD tone, and yesterday at the NAMM Marshall announced a new Marshall replicating the AFD tone. The guys at metromap suspect strongly that Marshall's announcement might have something to do with their findings. It is indeed somewhat interesting  that Marshall made that decision after metromp's findings.

It might seem far fetched, but that thread did talk in detail about lots of experimenting. I am certain it was the most detailed discussion on the AFD tone you'll find anywhere online. If I worked for Marshall it would be crass negligence if I didn't check out their findings. Maybe you know, the AFD is one of the most sought after amp tones. EVH's tone too, but at least in his case EVH knows what he did to get his tone. In AFD's case, Slash was so drugged up that he doesn't know much and the the company who rented him the amp for AFD have no clue about the mod either. It's one of history's biggest mysteries, up there with Jimmy Hoffa

I think that if the Marshall people wanted to copy the ideas on that forum they already have all the info (just like I do). It's too late for the thread removal. Anyway, that's pretty much it...

[drew]

sluckey, could you by any chance post the Visio raw file?

It's too big to post. I can email to you. Is your email address valid?

sluckey, could I get a copy of the Visio file?  The e-mail linked to my account here is valid.  TIA.

[sluckey]

Drew, did you get the email?

[drew]

Got it.  Thanks again.

[jbutler]

sluckey, could you by any chance post the Visio raw file?

It's too big to post. I can email to you. Is your email address valid?

sluckey, could I get a copy of the Visio file?  The e-mail linked to my account here is valid.  TIA.

Er, umm..... new to the board, but is there any chance i can get that viso file too?

[flatart]

Hi Sluckey,
I'm new on this forum and I'm really interested in AFD discussion
could you send me by email the Visio raw file or post it somewhere?
thanks in advance

[sluckey]

The Visio file is no longer available. I'll leave the PDF format available at the link above. It is an exact copy of the Visio file and you can even print it with no scaling to use as a drill template.

[bakerlite]

Hey Sluckey -
Is that PDF file still floating about? :)

[sluckey]

Did you click the link?