bench setup

[jcm-jmp]

hey guys
 
been a little under the weather here for a few days so havent been  around too much
anyways.........

i have the tube amp bug so damn bad i went out and bought me a shop !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i was wondering if any of you guys that have working shops now could throw some pointers my way for laying out my shop
as far as bench space speacial equipment ect.............

it is 12' x 20' shop area with a 12' x 15' office area that is being built on my land.

 so i want to do heavy internet advertiseing i would like to do something like doug has here but not near the scale. if at a later point it gets as successful as doug's that would be great but not looking to start at that level

i am going to setup all the insurence and legal paper stuff in the next couple of weeks.

p.s.
 doug, i will assure you, that i will be very considerate of you and your buisness. i am not and will not plug my shop in any way form or fashion on your web space. the help i have recieved from you and the peeps here deserves  that respect and i intend to honor that respect.

peace
robert

[LooseChange]

Your signature says it all.... Take your time.

[PRR]

> i went out and bought me a shop !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  12' x 20' shop area with a 12' x 15' office area that is being built on my land.

You know how you make a small fortune in the amp-building business?

Start with a large fortune.

Most of the "greats" started, even stayed, in small cheap spaces until they were moving hundreds of amps.

I venture to say you can never re-coup the cost of a 12'x35' pole-barn in the amp racket.

Well, it will be a really nice garage and potting-shed.

> throw some pointers my way for laying out my shop

I have no idea how to fill 12'x35' properly. That's "too much space". I admit I've filled over 10'x20', but mostly with cruft. My actual working areas, I can cover with outstretched arms.

> speacial equipment ect...  advertiseing i would like

Learn to write right.

I'm not being snotty just because I have half a degree in English. If you can't sell in person, clear error-free writing is still the way to get your product across after they drool on the pictures. If you did sell in person, you'd wear a clean shirt and use mouthwash; good writing is the equivalent of good grooming.

I DO wish you all the luck and success you deserve, and more. But you bit-off a big bite.

[bigsbybender]

What's the goal of this shop?  Repairs....custom builds or production?     What kind of market do you have?    

I only do this crap on the side...in my basement.....repairs primarily and almost exclusively...though I'm up to about 6 amps that I've sold  (mostly variant's of 5E3 deluxes).  I don't advertise though...but this isn't my source of income. I have a lot of contacts through the Musictech/McNallySmith school of Music in the Twin Cities, if if weren't for that I wouldn't have anything to work on.....I guess my advice is keep the overhead low, The USA had Leo, Hartley and a couple others and England had Mr. Marshall....nobody else became super rich off this racket.

j.

[jcm-jmp]

Learn to write right.  

lol yes i do agree! i have used spell checker at my 9-5 job for so long my gramar has suffered.

I venture to say you can never re-coup the cost of a 12'x35' pole-barn in the amp racket

i wish i were to get out as cheap as a pole-barn, but a slab and stud wall climatic controled building was the only option for me.
most customers will not want to leave their $1k+ amplifiers in a pole-barn to be serviced.


What's the goal of this shop?

to be sucessfull of course

Repairs....custom builds or production?

all three, with an internet based full line audio electronics parts supplier.

What kind of market do you have?

i am in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex. there are only a handfull of repair shops here that will even touch a tube amp, let alone modify or dare to custom build one taylored to ones needs. Also out of that hanfull there are only 2 that have any kind of reputation.

i am in the working musicians loop in the area, although i dont perform for a living, many of my close personal friends do. they all have had me at least look at thier gear. i have made repairs to some. a few of thier friends have had me make some repairs on thier gear. so i have already got my name going around the "click" , but the old notable shops in the area are still the guy's that are going to be hard to compete against. These guys have been here for years and have the music store's(guitar centers, brook may's,etc....) customer base wrapped up pretty tight. AT this point, i could not handle that volume of work. so im going to try advertisements and a large web space to get things rolling at a pace i can handle.

peace guys

and thanks for the help

[jhadhar65]

I don't make a living doing this, either, although my thoughts do drift in that direction from time to time as a post-retirement option.  I've tinkered for quite a while and, as a result, I'll make the following observations with regard to my own hopes and dreams:

I try to keep my head out of the clouds and recognize the difference between 'hobby' and 'business'.  I'd say if you're consistently clearing at least 20% above everything it costs you to make one component lead hot (component costs, minor inventory, electricity, gas to get there, etc.), then you might be in business.  Otherwise, it's still a hobby.

On a related note, if you're now estimating exactly what it'll cost to do do business for a week, month, whatever, just know that you're still going to miss a lot.  Double whatever you think it will cost you.

I'll only invest in an off-site location when I absolutely can no longer do it at home.  The exception might be a storefront.  In that case, I'd be sure to offer something more than just amp work.  The amp work might be my passion, but I'll need to eat, too.  And now you're competing with gross quantity purchasing and retail glam.

I'm not trying to talk you out of anything, but keep this in mind.  As soon as you hang a shingle, you are automatically the end of the line.  What I mean is, YOU are solely responsible for what happens to the customer's property.  This forum is great and can be a big help, but YOU must be the answer to their problem in terms of troubleshooting, diagnosis, repair, appearance of work, effect your quality work has on the rest of the lesser quality circuitry, etc.  It's one thing to say you'll charge $45 an hour or whatever with a one hour minimum, but it's hard as heck to actually do it when all you did was reflow a joint or something.

Something else, if you're planning to make this your sole source of corn flakes, be honest about how much money you need to survive on.  If eating out only a couple of times a week is your idea of frugal, remember that you're competing against boutique amp makers who work every Friday night and don't own a VCR.  If you have credit card debt or more than two credit cards with a balance and all you've done with them is attempt to maintain your standard of living, I'd say you're potentially heading for disaster.  Managing extremely limited funds is key to success.

Once you know what it costs you to do business for a given period (see above) and have doubled it, add that to what you think it will cost you to survive.  Add 50% to this and that's how much you need to make.  If you're not making that much off your amp work now, what's going to make that happen once you're in your own facility?  What will make that difference?

As a forum friend who does not want to see you fail at anything 'amp' you try, I'd recommend getting out of the building problem if you can and make yourself available as am amp mechanic to every music store in your corner of the cabbage patch.  There's plenty in the Dallas area.  This way, you'll get all the pressure you want from people who don't know you, but are paying to get something from you and your experience and competence will increase faster than waiting on someone to bring their job to you.

You can't sit around and let life pass you by and you've got to chase your dreams if you're to have any hope at all of catching one.  Just be sure you've been honest with yourself about what kind of race you're in and what you're competing against.  "To be successful" is not a business objective.  I genuinely hope this helps you.

Hoyt

[eosada]

From where I stand, there are two schools of thought:

"Do what you love and the money will follow" or "Don't turn something you love into something you hate".

I'm always torn between the two and I see it clearly from both perspectives. Building amps, building guitars, building classic cars or just playing clubs is all great fun, the fun is what feeds the passion.

I played in a General Business band for about 2 years for the money and it quickly turned into just another job ... at that point I took 3 years off until the passion for playing came back, now it's about the love of the music and I'm loving playing again.

I built one amp for myself and had a ball doing it. I'm just finishing up another for someone else and it's not so much fun, it's stressful as hell.

Then again, I've never been money driven and because of that fact, I lack the discipline required to be a successful small business entrepreneur. I'm task driven, not very good at being organized and simply hate multi-tasking. It kills me when I have to set aside one project to move over to the next, I tend to get "Bogged Down In Minutia".

If you have the ability to be a great business person, above being a great amp tech/builder, you've got it nailed. If not, you might want to re-think your ambitions.

I wish you the Best of Luck and Success

Ed

[Tiny_Daddy]

Well I'm not saying you'll get rich either but it helps to have retail sales that bring in most of the cash. You may end up fixing only the amps that can be made to work by throwing in some new parts because time is money and there is no time to spend troubleshooting a tough problem. Especially if there are some easy fixes awaiting your attention that can bring in some cash.
Just another thought, there are some people who demand a store front and so I get business through a particular music store that specializes in older amps. There are other people who do not want to deal with a person who's sole source of income is fixing amps.
Also there is or was a guy in town who was trying to set up a repair shop for whatever, including appliances. Something like the old "Fred's fix-it shop" I suppose. But with stuff so cheap at Wally Mart...

[bnwitt]

I think you've dedicated too much space to the office.  maybe it should be Office/ Demo room.  I don't know that the shop space is too big as mentioned, that depends on what all you are going to do in the amp building.  For instance, are you going to do any woodwork, metal work, tolexing?  I'm sure you're going to do the electronic bench and hole drilling part, but how about a list of all of the components you intend to build and or assemble yourself?

[PRR]

This guru thought about it, and did it, and wrote-up his thoughts, and has made his bread for decades this way. (More digital electronics, printing, and consulting, not geetar amps; but the business principles are the same.)

The Incredible Secret Money Machine
Lancaster, Don  
A how-to for creating your own computer, craft or technical venture. Fun and interesting read.

ISBNs:
1978: 0672215624
1992: 1882193652

Don does not have the book posted online (that I can find) but much more tech stuff on his site http://www.tinaja.com and ISMM stuff here.

[HotBluePlates]

the music store's(guitar centers, brook may's

Here's a little head's up... Brook Mays has gone belly-up, at least in North Carolina. I have an in-law that was a sales rep for them and lost his job this year, and they closed up all their shops under the Brook Mays name and others (McFadyen) in this state, possibly in a number of other states as well.

Another little note as far a busniess model for a music store. They have high-dollar items like instriments and amps where the prices are cut as close to the bone as possible, meaning there's very little mark-up over dealer cost. Where music stores make the majority of their money is in the small consumables where the price can be marked up significantly without having a product that looks too expensive, and so they make the most of their money selling these things that people come in a buy all the time. Strings, picks, wind instrument reeds, drumsticks, etc.

They *do not* make serious money on big ticket items that don't sell as fast. It implies that you have to try and live off of selling tubes, speakers, small replacement items, and look at repairs and builds as gravy that won't come around as often.

[bonealone]

BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME.....and if not, you followed your dream. After all, you weren't put on this orb to make money, but to do the best with what you know. Just make sure the wall directly behind your bench is padded for that one time you touch the wrong wire! Go for it, and I wish you the best of luck! (I'm quite sure many people told Jim, and Leo, and even Doug, that they were fools, but we wouldn't be on this forum if it weren't for those who took a chance)!

[Tiny_Daddy]

One other thought, some guys seem to be building Weber kits and offering them for sale. How about this scenario: Sign up with WeberVST so that people e-mail you for kits. Also build up a few popular kits. Then instead of waiting for e-mail requests to start a build, you will have the already-assembled kits ready to ship to them.

[jcm-jmp]

One other thought, some guys seem to be building Weber kits and offering them for sale. How about this scenario: Sign up with WeberVST so that people e-mail you for kits. Also build up a few popular kits. Then instead of waiting for e-mail requests to start a build, you will have the already-assembled kits ready to ship to them

im already in that mode as we speak. but i think just from the reasponce of the peeps i have delt with so far that my main stay here is going to be parts. most musicians out there cant afford a custom built amp. at best they might be able to push for a mod on the particular amp that they scraped for in the first place. now if that particular amp fails in some way then they have to get it fixed, but failing amps are not every day.

so for this particular reason i am not going to try to make this my sole form of income. this is a HOBY! now if this hoby can make me a little extra cash and provide some personal sence of achievment, then i will be happy. im not tring to be leo or any other great amp designer. im just doing something i have a passion for.

if i can make enough of an impact in the local market here to call attention to, then i have far exceeded anything i have visioned this hoby would ever be! i am in the DFW metroplex the competition here is fierce in any market.

i do appriciate all the feed back though. i guess im just stubbborn, but i just think that i can and will make a profit. not a large one but enough to keep my hobbiest spirit alive.

peace
robert
  

[Tiny_Daddy]

Ya it's a hobby but legally it must become a business "when you start charging people $100 and up" as someone at the tax office said. And then the IRS wants their cut and you are supposed to amortize your equipment, etc. I'm in Fort Worth and business is brisk. Where are you?

[jcm-jmp]

I'm in Fort Worth and business is brisk. Where are you?

wow! small world! im in crowley! (miller brewery area)

so i guess you know gearheart , audioelectronics, etc.....
those are the boys in our area who pretty much have the big buisness.

i think doyle mentioned trying to get on with some of the local shops first. i did that and they would'nt even consider it because of the schedual i proposed. im not going to quit my job for this, as i am in a very good position at DFW Airport, that i am sure tube amp repair will not be able to replace dollar wise. so they would'nt work with the days i told them i could work.

peace
robert

[Tiny_Daddy]

Hey yeah, Gearhart, I worked there in R&D for 5 years. Hang onto that airport job.

[jcm-jmp]

, Gearhart, I worked there in R&D for 5 years.

i talked with him for a little bit. this was a while back when i first started tinkering with tube amps. he was worried even then about a no compete clause that he said he has all his employe's sign. at that point i had no intensions of even considering working for him.

i dont believe in the "keep it a secret thing." it is a craft that must be learned and passed on. not hidden and kept to a select group of individuals. if that mind set preavails then so be it ,but i feel that everything needs checks and balances to keep it honest.

just my opinion

peace
robert

[Tiny_Daddy]

Gearhart was concerned we would go to work for one of the other similar companies: Pengo, Computalog, Birdwell, etc. or just go independent. A lot of people did.

[kriswel]

Not sure how much of a market you have where you live but if you are building custom amps, a small woodworking shop would go hand in hand. In the city I live in little woodwork shops do quite well.  I have thought of this and may go that direction once the construction boom starts to slow down here.

kris

[bluesbear]

I'd go with a small room for electronics. A large closet is plenty. Where you need the room is for a wood and metal shop. You need at least enough room to feed an 8' board into a thickness planer or table saw... that's 8' for feed and 8' for the board to exit the machine. Also, add the size of the table saw and a couple feet on either side.
Dave

[jcm-jmp]

i respect his comitment to his buisness,
 
take electrical contractors or any other service type buisness, do you have to sign a no compete clause to go to work for those companies?

if you go into any type service buisness you had better be ready for the next guy in town to go into the same type buisness and be willing to compete with him.(in some case's this might be a former employe of yours) this is the nature of free enterprise. it is a dog eat dog world in the service trades industry and the wolves are hungry! so i know i have to face this reality and so does anyone else who hopes to ever be comfortable doing buisnesss in a competative market. the key to success is to know your competitors inside and out and use that to you advantage. be one step ahead and always ready for change and never reveal your buisness stradegy.

yes a wood shop is something that would work well with an amplifier custom build shop, but im not really thinking along those lines at this point. most of my sales will be internet based componant sales.

peace
robert

[rustycage]

Wow - how timely - I'm planning an exit from corporate careerdom as I type. I just placed an order for TISMM II through Amazon.

I have had two offers in the last month for the use of warehouse space with machinery facilities, Autocad/CNC etc. I haven't worked out what strings are attached to these offers yet but will explore both. Between amp tinkering and a mobile Pro Tools recording rig I might just have enough hobby-power to support a modest lifestyle. If I sink after a few months I can always run back to the cube farm.

[jcm-jmp]

arcane

hmmmm! is that arcane screen name from the band arcane in the dfw area (byron hawk etc...)
it seems that there is a lot of folks contemplating the buisness these days.

robert

[jcm-jmp]

sounds very nice.
rob

i have to purchase some more bins this is for sure. i also need to dedicate a bench for packing and shipping tasks.
i think i will end up in good shape as far a space goes. just have to be particular in my layout.
 
peace
robert