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Author Topic: What to do to tap into the acoustic sound of an archtop ?  (Read 345 times)
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Terry
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« on: December 14, 2008, 12:28:14 pm »

You know your right, the L R Bagss T-Bridge simply does not give an acoustic sound.  It's interesting.  Maybe I'll put it on my PRS copy.  What could I use to amplify the acoustic properties of my archtop along with my magnetic pick ups (which are great).  Could I still use the centrl X with your suggestion?  Ever try the K&K stuff?
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G._Hoffman
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2008, 03:23:26 pm »

You know your right, the L R Bagss T-Bridge simply does not give an acoustic sound.  It's interesting.  Maybe I'll put it on my PRS copy.  What could I use to amplify the acoustic properties of my archtop along with my magnetic pick ups (which are great).  Could I still use the centrl X with your suggestion?  Ever try the K&K stuff?



What kind of guitar are we talking about here?  If you've got humbuckers routed into the top, you're not going to get it to sound at all like a real acoustic.  First of all, you have these heavy metal humbuckers hanging off the top and damping down the vibration, and secondly the tops on those guitars are made much heavier and thicker than a real acoustic guitar.

That being said, you could try a Fishman Archtop Guitar Pickup.  It will work with the Control X, but you will probably still find it kind of harsh in the high end, and you will lose your intonation adjustment.  The only thing I've found that tames that is an 18V preamp, which the Control X isn't.  D-TAR and Bartolini both make very nice ones, but good luck finding them.  I'm not 100% certain that D-TAR is still making them at all (I can't find it on their website).  As for the Bartolini (I can't remember the model number, but it is the single channel piezo buffer amp), it is not on their short list, making it a custom order, which means you can expect to wait at least 6 months for it.  Of the two, I like the Bartolini one a little more. 


Gabriel
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jjasilli
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2008, 08:44:05 pm »

The only way to get good acoustic sound is with a microphone.  But, I don't know how that would sound with a semi-hollow body.  My friend Danny Kalb (Blues Project)  just got a Martin Ellipse.  That's a small-bodied martin acoustic with a Fishman Ellipse system.  It's a very convincing acoustic sound through a guitar amp.  However this particular system is only for round-hole acoustics.  See:  http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=86


Here's a Highlander system.  It might be a challenge to rig such a thing in a semi-hollow body, but perhaps it cold be done: 
http://www.highlanderpickups.com/install/images/hmic/hmic.pdf

So now we're probably talking about brewing up a blend of bridge piezzo & internal mike / with the mag pickups.  It would sure help if the guitar had a cavity cover in the back.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 08:49:08 pm by jjasilli » Logged
G._Hoffman
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2008, 10:35:22 pm »

The only way to get good acoustic sound is with a microphone.  But, I don't know how that would sound with a semi-hollow body.  My friend Danny Kalb (Blues Project)  just got a Martin Ellipse.  That's a small-bodied martin acoustic with a Fishman Ellipse system.  It's a very convincing acoustic sound through a guitar amp.  However this particular system is only for round-hole acoustics.  See:  http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=86


Here's a Highlander system.  It might be a challenge to rig such a thing in a semi-hollow body, but perhaps it cold be done: 
http://www.highlanderpickups.com/install/images/hmic/hmic.pdf

So now we're probably talking about brewing up a blend of bridge piezzo & internal mike / with the mag pickups.  It would sure help if the guitar had a cavity cover in the back.



The thing to always keep in mind with any acoustic pickup is that they are a compromise.  Or, more precisely, a series of compromises.  On one end of the spectrum you have the best possible tone (a really great microphone), and at the other end you have volume before feedback, mobility of the player, and separation from the rest of the band. 

Microphones have a lot of problems.  First of all, if you don't stand absolutely still, the sound is all over the place.  Next, they pickup everything on the stage; and if you have a loud drummer or a bass player with an SVT, that is what you are going to hear through the mic.  I've had shows where the guitar player insisted on a mic, and when it was soloed the drums were louder than the guitar.  Finally, the internal mics (such as on the various Fishman Blender systems) don't sound much like a guitar, much less your particular guitar.  Maybe it's just me, but I've never much liked the sound of my guitar when my head was sticking through the soundhole, and that is what internal mics sound like to me.  For all of these reasons, I consider microphones to be a very bad idea for most acoustic musicians.  They work fine for guys doing small duo or solo gigs, or really any gig with no electric instruments (or banjos...;)), but beyond that they become more problematic. 

Piezos are, for most guys, the best set of compromises.  Most of the pickups we install are for guys who are playing in the church band on Sundays, and in that situation a good undersaddle (i.e., the Fishman Matrix Infinity, the D-TAR Timbreline, the basic Highlander pickup, or any of a number of other pickups) is ideal.  Because of the pressure of the strings on the pickup, you get more output from the pickup, which gives you more volume before feedback, better isolation (piezos turn the whole top of the guitar into a microphone - on Ani DiFranco's live album "Living in Clip," the audience applause at the end of each track was captured completely through the pickup on her guitar), they are easy to setup (which is important with most of the sound guys you have working in churches, who are usually not that experienced), and the sound is actually an advantage in a busy band situation, because it doesn't take up too much space which helps to cut through the mix.

The archtop pickup I linked to is a passive system, which is very problematic in my mind.  Piezo pickups put out a ridiculously high impedance signal (tens of millions of ohms, or there abouts), which means they are way more prone to damage from stray RF and cable capacitance.  They also sound really thin and weak if they are not buffered asap.  That is why active systems are so popular, but they are a real pain in the ass on F-hole instruments.  If you are putting a pickup on a archtop guitar, a mandolin, or a resonator, what we usually suggest is a passive pickup with a good quality standalone preamp or DI box with as short of a cable as you can bear - certainly no longer than ten feet.  The most popular preamp/DI on the market right now (in my experience) is the L.R. Baggs Paracoustic DI, and I recommend it frequently as it is a very good sounding unit.  (I'd suggest the one I'm designing, but I haven't actually made any yet so that would seem premature at this point :)).  The Control X would be a fine alternative to the Para DI, though it has less control of the signal.


Gabriel
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Terry
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2008, 09:57:34 am »

True confessions -and- my sincerest apologies.  In trying to get the Baggs t Bridge & Contrl X to work with my Fender Bassman I put a couple of resisters (about 168 K) in series with the hot wire going into the contrl X and taped them up. I recently purchased a used Genz Benz stereo 60 for church and was getting nowhere .......untill I found my "handywork" which I had forgotton.  Took them off and now this thing sounds as good as I could have hoped for.

Uhm... I really did learn a lot through this whole process.  This acoustic thing is new to me.  I never thought I'd enter the 21st. I mean the Genz Benz thats like digital.

Thanks for all the info and help.

Terry
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bluesbear
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2008, 10:32:03 pm »

This will sound weird but, in my opinion, the acoustic simulator in the Vox Tonelab sounds far more like an acoustic than any actual pickup equiped acoustic I've ever heard. Miked is better, of course, but not very workable in a live situation.
Dave
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G._Hoffman
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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2008, 04:10:35 am »

Miked is better, of course, but not very workable in a live situation.


I'm afraid I have to disagree with that comment, conditionally. 

A mike is better if you perform in one of the limited situations where it is workable.  If you are playing with any loud instruments on stage with you, or if you are not capable of standing still, microphones suck.  In the studio, they are the only way to go, but I can't even begin to count how many shows I've been involved with where guitar players ended up sound awful because they wouldn't get a decent pickup in their guitars.  No, they don't sound like your guitar, but they are a lot better than not being heard at all.


Gabriel
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