Relay circuit & layout board & ft switch

[tubenit]

Let's talk about relay terminology.   per  Sluckey's explanation

 A relay coil is said to be de-energized when no power is applied. A relay coil is said to be energized when power is applied.

 Relay contacts usually have a standard terminology associated with them.

 C = Common... This is the movable contact.
 NC = Normally Closed... This contact is connected to the Common contact when the relay coil is de-energized.
 NO = Normally Open... This contact is ***NOT*** connected to the Common contact when the relay coil is de-energized.

 When you energize the coil, the Common contact moves and will now be connected to the Normally Open contact and will no longer be connected to the Normally Closed contact.

 Learning and understanding this terminology will make working with relays very easy. :)

 Oh yeah, you will never be shorting the hot and ground together!






Here is some collection of information regarding relays from a lengthy thread on the D'Mars OD Special

Don't forget that the 6.3 volt source is different on some trannies
You have no center tap using two 100 ohms
center tap to ground
champ style with one leg going to chassis

Be careful here. If your filament winding has a CT connected to chassis, DO NOT CONNECT THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF THIS RELAY POWER SUPPLY TO CHASSIS! Doing so will poop the bridge or PT, maybe even both. Better to be safe and float this relay PS. There is no reason to connect the negative side to chassis. That means to also isolate any chassis connectors used to connect to a FS.

Question:  Would I still need an isolated jack using the 5 pin DIN?
No. You would only need to isolate a jack if the body of the jack is actually one of the electrical connections, such as the Switchcraft 12 phone jack that has the 'sleeve' connected to chassis unless you use fiber bushing washers. None of the DIN connecting pins actually touch the chassis when mounted, right? So the DIN is already isolated.

Doug's 5 pages of  relay explanations are here: http://www.el34world.com/projects/relay_switch.htm

Since Doug doesn't carry a 5 pin DIN 3 button footswitch (P-H473 replacement for Marshall PED803), I had to order one from AES:
http://www.tubesandmore.com/products/P-H473

Reportedly the Mouser 61GB5FX jack fits that foot switch pedal: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Switchcraft/61GB5FX/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtAYTMy7wxAr6Injyb9yGN8eykrb7huJL4%3d

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

NOTE the orientation of the + end of the relay & turret on this board.

With respect, Tubenit

[Geezer]

I mean this with much respect but that looks like it could be a parasitic nightmare waiting to happen if all those wires aren't either protected/shielded or on a circuit board? I hope not anyway. It's definitely kicked up a few notches w/ some fancy switching

EDIT (from Tubenit): I commented Geezer did a 4x dpdt relay system and below is his reply.

Yes, I've got 4x DPDT relays used in basically the same configuration and very little thought given to wire routing (more of a rat's nest than Tubenit's is going to be) with absolutely no issues at all....perfect silent switching and no oscillation.
I just could have got lucky, but this is the 3rd amp I've done with this configuration without issues on any of them, so I'm REALLY lucky, I suppose.  

G

[tubenit]

Here is the relay layout board and relay power amp board (current stage and wiring is not completed).  Compare this with the drawn up layout.

Note that the relay sockets are not soldered in the turrets and the relays are not in the sockets.  I still need to hook up diodes and the V+ and ground on the outer turrets closest to the Hoffman style layout board.

With respect, Tubenit

[Geezer]

Hey guys....the footswitch will work with LED's (powered by the relay power supply....no batteries needed)
The relay power supply is used to power the LED's!!!

This system also puts Steve's point that "the LED & CLR in line with the relay coil WON'T WORK" to work FOR US!!!!

The footswitch uses only 1/4 of the DPDT switch, so a SPST will work here, but the Marshall replacement comes with DPDT, so go with what you got!!

SEE IMAGE BELOW!! attached

***When is switch is NOT activated (open), then the LED is connected to ground, allowing illumination - RELAY is OFF & the OD is ENGAGED (being connected to the N.C. connections)

***When the switch IS activated (closed), then the LED circuit is bypassed, turning the LED OFF (no illumination) - RELAY is ON, OD is DIS-engaged, Clean is now active (being connected to the N.O. connections)


So, when the LED is ON, the RELAY is actually OFF (and when the LED is OFF, the relay is ON)....that is why the N.C. connection is used for the OD & the N.O. connection is used for the CLEAN, because that allows you to have the LED follow/indicate when the OD is engaged.

It's confusing until you get the principle, then it makes perfect sense!  

ps, disregard the DIN pins & LED orientation on the drawing, as the pins aren't correct & the LED polarity is reversed to your application....the principle is still the same, and works perfectly!
EDIT: I fixed the LED polarity on the drawing


G

[Geezer]

Does it use 1K resistors as per the drawing at AES?

Yes, 1k ( I just opened mine to double check) are in the AES footswitch.

G

[Willabe]

connect to the common for the +5V supply. And that common should not be connected to chassis ground.

What is a "common" to the +5 supply?  Are you referring to the V+ on the relay power amp or the ground on the relay power amp?  

Where do I connect the "common?"  

And if it's not a chassis ground?  Where do you ground it?

You don't ground it as Sluckey said. It's a floating PSU.

Think about a flash light with a battery. It's PSU is not grounded. It has a B+ and a common return to compleat the circuit loop.

The return in your circuit is common to all 3 relays and the PSU.


                 Brad    

[Geezer]

The "common" is the common connection point (to the circuit) that all of the relay coils & their switches share.

In our case it is the negative(-) side of the 5VDC power supply you are building, which MUST be kept completely isolated from the chassis ground (as does the positive(+) side, as well).

Notice that the (-) is connected (daisy chained) to every switch....they have this connection in "common".
However, the (+) side is NOT shared with other parts of the switching circuit.....each switch has it's own (+) wire from the relay coil, it's own LED, it's own CLR. The power is supplied to each relay & switch separately, but each individual sub-cicuit is activated by closing the connection to same shared "common" (-) point.

Hope that helps...

EDIT: Brad put it in much easier to understand terms!

[Geezer]

OK....here is a circuit that works.....and is basically the way the AES footswitch comes wired (you might have to reverse polarity of the LED's....wait & see if they light.)

Just make sure to NOT ground the circuit to anything! (notice I removed the ground you had on the original drawing)
This is a floating circuit....the power/voltage just makes a loop (depending on what direction you visualize the current traveling) from the PT, to the rectifier (+), to the Voltage regulator, to relay coils, to the switches, then back to the rectifier (-) & the PT to complete the journey, and performing work along the way by either running the LEDs or activating the relay coils. There is no need for a chassis ground. It's a closed loop, like a battery & bulb in a flashlight (thx, Brad)

Note that the wirecolors might not match up (don't know if you referenced the AES pedal for proper color coding, & I don't have mine here in front of me at the moment)

Reference the new drawing for any changes you might need to make (if any) in the original plan to get relays going with just the panel switches 1st....as Steve said, that's a good plan!

 

[Geezer]

I had just updated the drawing when I saw you caught the overlooked "ground" connections on the switch, too! So that answers Q3.

Will the bridge rectifier work without being grounded to the chassis?

Q1 - Yes, or better....it will work without being connected to the CHASSIS.
In this circuit, it is not B+ & Ground (as we normally deal with), but instead >>> positive (the + connection on the bridge) which is usually B+ in the circuits we normally deal with, and negative (the [-] connection on the bridge) which normally connected to the chassis in our circuits.

Think of the bridge as a battery, because that is exactly the way we are using it here. A battery has a + end and a [-] end.....you connect a wire to the positive, connect that wire to one pole of a light bulb, connect the other pole of the bulb to the negative pole of the battery with another wire & the bulb lights up....no chassis or other ground needed. It is totally isolated from any other need. You can even just hold the wires onto the poles with your fingers in your hand & it will work.

That's what we are doing here....disregard any other part of the power supply, just look at the + & [-] poles of the bridge as a battery.

Q2 - The regulator uses the same + pole as the input, [-] pole as the common reference (on the center leg...look at the drawing), and then outputs as the new "regulated" 5VDC+ voltage source. It's still just the + pole of the "battery" (bridge), but now is regulated to stay @ 5v.

The 4700uf cap connects the same way as always...cap + to the + rail, & cap [-] to the [-] rail


I really think/hope the "Battery" visualization will help you.....

Another thought....in this circuit, think of the positive pole of the bridge as "B+", and the negative pole as the "chassis ground", albeit a virtual one only.

Don't give up....you're close now!

G

[tubenit]

just look at the + & [-] poles of the bridge as a battery.

In this circuit, it is not B+ & Ground (as we normally deal with), but instead >>> positive (the + connection on the bridge) which is usually B+ in the circuits we normally deal with, and negative (the [-] connection on the bridge) which normally connected to the chassis in our circuits.

That was the missing piece for me.  I kept reading everything (incorrectly) from the vantage point of needing the bridge and filter cap and voltage regulator connected to true chassis ground.

Going back and re-reading the previous responses, Sluckey (& Brad & you) already had addressed this for me and I still did not understand it.  You guys all gave me the answer. It was staring at me & I could not recognize it.
 

Gentleman, you have ALL been incredibly gracious, kind and helpful to me!!   THANKS to everyone!!

With respect, Tubenit

[Geezer]

Woo Hoo!

This discussion has helped me solidify my grasp on the relay PS & that will help me as I try to utilize this system in my next build.

Relays & their power supplies are major bug-a-boo for LOTS of DIY'rs, so I think if you & Doug can get a system worked out (which clearly you are doing) then he will sell lots of turretts, board material & associated parts, and builders will have a great resource for adding more switching options with less hassle.

The Weber boards are OK, but kinda cheap-ishly built & not worthy of a real, quality build (plus the relays suck WAY too much current)

Thanks for all your work on this!

G

[Willabe]

Question:

I thought that the reason you can't ground the relay circuit to the chassis and have to leave it floating is because it's feed from the 6.3 heater wind and it's already referenced to ground?

It's like if you have a 6.3 heater wind with a CT and used a full wave full bridge rectifier. You can't ground both the CT and the bridge.

But all 3 of Dougs drawings do have the filter cap after the rectifier grounded to the chassis.

I understood that for that part of the circuit it must be a floating PSU when Sluckey said not to ground it to the chassis but I don't understand why.

Is it because Tubenits circuit has the LED and switches wired differently than Dougs drawings?

Or is it because of the 5v reg?
              

                           Brad      

[Willabe]

Ok, thanks Sluckey. I see it now.

Dougs drawings do not have a 6.3 with CT and a bridge together. That would be a 4'th example.


                  Brad    

[tubenit]

Guys,

My goal here is that I am trying to match my "colored wires to DIN pins" to Geezer's schematic/layout.

What I mean by that is I am trying to match a colored wire to the same pins on his DIN.  So based on his schematic, I was wanting to keep (for example) the black wire on pin #3 going to "common".


With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

Steve,

Man, you removed some good stuff !

Any chance you'd be willing to repost that last schematic you drew along with an explanation  & also make a comment about the need for a floating PSU?

Actually, just post anything that you think someone who is attempting this should be particularly mindful of.

You could put them in one post if you want. You had made some VERY useful contributions to this thread making sense and answering questions that others (including myself) have and will have.

Thanks, Jeff

[Geezer]

Not sure, but I think we're trying to establish the correct color coding for the "stock" AES footswitch, correct? Then we can make sure those colors match up with our colors inside the amp. correct?
I cannot vouch for the originallity of the colors on my 3-button footswitch, as I have had it several years & might have re-arranged the wires at some point?

I think it would be helpful we could the this verified so that someone could simply purchase the 3-button LED switch from AES (or Doug, if he wanted to stock them) and it could be a plug & play thing with no worries.

I have attached a drawing of the stock AES 3-button circuit....alas it doesn't have colors assigned.
Tubenit, could you look at yours & match up the colors & mark them?

If this is NOT what we're doing....please disregard  

G

[Geezer]

the most important thing is to clearly define which pin on the DIN plug is "common" (conductor/pin 4 on the current AES schematic) & to denote that in this thread for ARCHIVES.

You could do that with your DMM while you have it open to look at the colors, along with which color goes to which switch.

G

[tubenit]

Doug's relay board worked.

I am trying another version now that will be more serviceable and a neater wiring arrangement.    

OK, I got the relays up and working and I'm using a DIN 5pin jack/plug into a 3 switch foot switch. Everything works fine. No issues.

The relays are VERY quiet.  However I found two things to be mindful of.

1)   I found using the Hoffman D'Mars board that I needed shielded wires going to the treble pot from the .002 and .02 caps on either
      side of the wiper.  Something about crossing the B+ created some hum.   

2)   I tended to use shielded wires on any long runs to the relays also.  As much is reasonably possible don't bunch or bundle wires
      around the relays right next to one another where possible leave some space between wires  (maybe 1/4-3/8").  And on long
      runs from the board to the relays used shielded wire.

IF for some reason, you find that the high frequencies aren't there as much as you want, use an 82p or 100p silver mica cap from the OD trim wiper to the non-grounded terminal side. That brought out some very nice harmonics on my amp doing that.

I do think the "custom"  relay turret boards that I made where  the turrets are laced are VERY much worth the effort and they are a big time saver in wiring the relays up.  Whatever time it takes to make the boards will be gained back in ease of wiring and serviceability or tweakability.

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

This is ultimately the relay arrangement that I've used for my D'Mars Overdrive Special.  

Some tips:  
Do NOT ground the filter cap grounds on the "laced buss wire" on the turret board. Instead ground them on the buss wire soldered on to the back of the pots.

Place the relays as close to where you want the switchin done to minimize long runs. Also I think having each relay be on a separate board would be best for ease of wiring and placement. (Just an opinion on that)

Use shielded wires around tight fits around relays and on long runs. I did not find this to lessen clarity or harmonics on my amp which surprised me.

Lastly,  Doug's relays are VERY quiet.  I initially wasn't sure if that was the case.......... HOWEVER, it was my layout and grounding that induced some hum.  

My D'Mars ODS  with OD engaged is quieter at idle than the original '76 Princeton Reverb amp I owned.  On the clean engaged, it is just about dead quiet. I mean you have to really listen to hear the amp is on.  And those noise levels are with the amp cranked somewhat higher than the volume I normally play at.

With respect, Tubenit

[Geezer]

Thanks for the update! Good info to know.

Do NOT ground the filter cap grounds on the "laced buss wire" on the turret board. Instead ground them on the buss wire soldered on to the back of the pots.

Which filter caps are you refering to? Any & all that are associated with the preamp?

TIA, G

[tubenit]

Which filter caps are you refering to?

Preamp/clean and OD section filter caps of amp only.  LTPI filter cap is clustered with the power amp ones BUT the LTPI one was grounded on the busswire to the preamp.

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

I moved the relay power supply board to the side/inside the chassis by the PT.  That worked fine for me. No increase in noise doing that. In fact, the amp is somewhat quieter now. That may be because when the relay power supply was moved, it also moved some 6.3vac heater wires away from being above the OT?

Anyhow, mounted on the side of the chassis is convenient and out of the way and works.

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

I thought I'd include an illustrated photo of the toggle switches and DIN socket wiring.

Compare this to the layout/schematic in post #20

Wiring it this way will give you the following on your Marshall style 3 button foot switch (looking down on it):

left side = mid boost         middle  =  normal/fat       right side =  clean/OD

So ........... IF you want to have your ft switch buttons set up differently ........... then just wire accordingly on the DIN socket.


Tubenit

[tubenit]

Photo illustration of relay system on D'Mars OD Special amp

Tubenit

[sluckey]

There was still some question by a forum member regarding ground vs. "common" in the relay system. It was a legitimate question brought about because of a discrepency between Hoffman's schematic showing a relay system using ground on an amp that did not have a CT (center tap) ground.  This seemed in contrast to the layouts and photos designating to use "common" and not chassis ground.

Below is Sluckey's thoughtful and helpful response to this issue.  

Maybe the reason to not connect the bridge to chassis should be mentioned again. Look at this quote from the very first message in this thread...

Be careful here. If your filament winding has a CT connected to chassis, DO NOT CONNECT THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF THIS RELAY POWER SUPPLY TO CHASSIS! Doing so will poop the bridge or PT, maybe even both. Better to be safe and float this relay PS. There is no reason to connect the negative side to chassis. That means to also isolate any chassis connectors used to connect to a FS.

That's a very specific caution that ONLY APPLIES to connecting the negative side of ANY bridge to chassis IF (and only if) the transformer winding has a center tap that is connected to chassis.

The pic you posted does not have a center tap so that specific caution does not apply. It is perfectly safe to connect the bridge negative terminal to chassis in this case. But that pic doesn't even belong in this thread. That was just the starting point for Tubenit's evolved circuit.

However, looking at the specific caution, it also says "Better to be safe and float this relay PS". What I meant by that was if you don't know if your filament circuit has a real center tap, just to be safe, don't ground the bridge. By floating the relay PS you can use the circuit on ANY 6.3VAC source regardless of whether there's a real center tap involved.

I'm the originator of that quoted caution. Somewhere along the progression of this thread (and it's predecessor thread) that very specific caution took on another life and became a "Thou shall not in any case" caution.

The relay PS does not need to be tied to chassis ground to function. That seems to be a hard concept to grasp since we are so conditioned to think of chassis ground as something special. A metal box is just a very convenient, sturdy platform to build an amp on. And it also provides shielding and a convenient method of connecting common points (circuit returns or grounds) together without using a lot of wire. But you could build a fully functional amp in a cardboard box.

I hope this helps a little. If not, I'm just gonna shut up.

[tubenit]

Doug now has the relay boards and relay power supply boards available.  Super cool design!

Tubenit

[johnfv]

Another noob question here. On the topic of grounding or floating the PS (I'm specifically talking about Doug's board here): If I use the rectifier tap from the PT (my 18W has 0 and 6.3V, no center tap) then is it OK to ground the PS (in particular, the footswitch jack grounded to chassis)?  Would a 5V rectifier tap enough voltage for the PS?

[dscottguitars]

Dear Steve,

I am still somewhat confused about the relay wiring and floating common.  I see someone else has posted a similar question to mine from about a month or so ago.  Your post on Nov. 4th, reply #25, still does not explicitly say to use a floating common only.  You say that iff the transformer has a center tap, then only use a floating common.  But nothing about an artificial center tap.  I understand that it is safer to wire it as a floating common, but there are reasons that I would want to use the chassis ground instead.  The main reason is less wiring and easier footswitch wiring.  If I can get away with using one ground for my footswitch, then I can use a small 1/4" two prong jack.  One wire for the relay, the other for a boost and the ground to complete either.

1.) Can one use a chassis ground for an artificial center tap on the 6.3v part of the power transformer as the relay's common point?

2.) If my transformer has a center tap, can one NOT connect it and then make an artificial center tap from the two 6.3v leads?  I would only want to do this if the first question is: yes, one can use a chassis ground for the relay system if the transformer's 6.3v section does not have a center tap and you make an artificial one.  Otherwise I would not want to do this.

I took the drawing from Doug's Relay Switch page and came up with the drawing posted below.  Please feel free to change his drawing to this if you so desire...

Thanks,

Daniel

[sluckey]

Another noob question here. On the topic of grounding or floating the PS (I'm specifically talking about Doug's board here): If I use the rectifier tap from the PT (my 18W has 0 and 6.3V, no center tap) then is it OK to ground the PS (in particular, the footswitch jack grounded to chassis)?  Would a 5V rectifier tap enough voltage for the PS?

I'd need to see a specific schematic of your 18W to answer accurately. Otherwise, as I said in another thread, if you don't know what you have, just float it. There is no reason to connect the relay PS to chassis. If you want to use 1/4" phone jack for a footswitch, well the Cliff style jack is already isolated. And Doug sells insulating bushings cheap for Switchcraft jacks.

[johnfv]

Another noob question here. On the topic of grounding or floating the PS (I'm specifically talking about Doug's board here): If I use the rectifier tap from the PT (my 18W has 0 and 6.3V, no center tap) then is it OK to ground the PS (in particular, the footswitch jack grounded to chassis)?  Would a 5V rectifier tap enough voltage for the PS?

I'd need to see a specific schematic of your 18W to answer accurately. Otherwise, as I said in another thread, if you don't know what you have, just float it. There is no reason to connect the relay PS to chassis. If you want to use 1/4" phone jack for a footswitch, well the Cliff style jack is already isolated. And Doug sells insulating bushings cheap for Switchcraft jacks.

Again, thanks for the reply. I was just trying to get a better understanding of why and when it needed to be floated for future projects. I did float it to be safe on my 18W (mine is Ceriatone - layout here: http://www.ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/marshallLayout/18wattTMBceriatone.jpg). I fed Doug's PS from the heater wires going to the indicator and used a Cliffs jack for the footswitch. I do notice a bit of hum if I touch the metal of the footswitch or cable, that's another reason I was wondering about the grounding. Overall though, it is working very well...

[sluckey]

Your post on Nov. 4th, reply #25, still does not explicitly say to use a floating common only.

OK, I take it all back. My new stand on this is...

                                    ***DANGER***

ALWAYS FLOAT THE RELAY POWER SUPPLY. NEVER CONNECT ANY
PART OF THE RELAY SUPPLY TO CHASSIS OR MAIN AMP GROUND.

                                    ***DANGER***

 

[sluckey]

I do notice a bit of hum if I touch the metal of the footswitch or cable, that's another reason I was wondering about the grounding.

That's a different issue. There is no problem bonding the metal footswitch enclosure to the amp chassis. But you would need a 3 conductor cable, preferably a shielded twisted pair cable) and a stereo jack/plug. Or just do as Ampeg did and hardwire the footswitch cable to the amp chassis. You will always have it plugged in, right?

[tubenit]

I have updated a previous illustration with better photos of Doug's relay boards.  This essentially shows the relay switch for a current version of the D'Mars ODS that I am working on.

PLEASE note that the "common" on the relay switching posts is a different label of "common" for the psuedo common grounding (which is discussed in reply #25 and reply #31).

With respect, Tubenit

[marcoamf]

Hi, I have a very simple practical question: I've got Doug's relay kit and I'm finally going to install it.
Do I need to use thick wires from the 5v supply to the relay? Same from the relay to the board and footswitch jack?
I would assume there isn't much current going on in there so I could use thin wires, but I could be wrong...

The 6.3v-5v converter is going to be closer to the PT, and the relay itself closer to the switch on the front panel a bit far from it. Footswitch jack in the back panel, so also not so close.

Any help is appreciated. I'm building DaGeezer's HoSo 56 and the relay is for the "bump".

Thanks

[tubenit]

I think you will like Geezer's  HoSo56!  It's one of my favorite amps.

You connect 6.3v wiring to the relay NOT 5v wiring in case you were thinking to use actual 5 volts?   (not sure what you were meaning about using thick 5V wires & whether you meant voltage or wiring gauge?)

Regarding the gauge of the wire for the relay,  I just use 22 gauge like for the preamp heater wiring.

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

There occasionally continues to be some confusion on wiring up the clean to OD channel switching. 

I wire my relays with the OD being engaged in normally closed.  With that thinking, this is some further explanation on wiring up the relays.

There is also some information on wiring the relay specific to the original Tweed Overdrive Special.  It's different because of how the Level pot (similar to pre-LTPI master volume) is wired.

With respect,  Tubenit

[tubenit]

Let's say you have your relay wired so that overdrive is normally closed and when you engage the relay then the clean channel works.

So the OD is normally "on" and the clean is switched on.

But let's say even though you have the relay wired "correctly" to what you want that the LED light is NOT engaged when the OD is on and that you want the LED light on when the OD is engaged.

Then switch the LED wiring to match what you want.   

with respect,  Tubenit

[jojokeo]

Here is a signal path visualizer of the relay operation in schematic form along with a simple popping noise elimination resistor. It's the little things that make all the difference.

Hope this helps-
Keo

[adamG]

Then switch the LED wiring to match what you want.   

Guys, small petition to you for help.
Yesterday, I struggled with two swithes FS box for D_124 and I got problem with PAB one.
When switch is activated, LED is off. Then opposite, LED is on ,when switch is deactivated.
What can be the reason of it?
The OD LED and its switch are ok.
The FS socket is 1/4" stereo jack.
I've tried to reverse poles of switch acc.to your photo, but there's no possitive result.

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Adam

[tubenit]

I edited some previous pictures/illustrations to show a 2 button foot switch.

To avoid confusion about the "pseudo ground" for the relay switching carefully read reply 25 & 31.

Tubenit

[jloewenheim]

My experience with using this setup, is that when the (foot) switch is open, the LED will be lit. When it is closed, the current all goes through the switch and avoids the LED, so the LED will go off.  Additionally, depending on the amount of current necessary for the operation of the relays, the resistor value may need to be adjusted, otherwise the relay will not switch, as the current will instead travel through the LED and resistor.

Are you able to have the LED turn on when the switch is closed and relay activated?  If so, please let us know how this is facilitated.

Thanks to all of you guys for the detailed info

-Jake